Monday, July 13, 2015

Answer to Jack Goins

Jack wrote; "I believe this review would be accepted again before any legitimate genetic review board."  I think it's time someone had a real geneticist review this Melungeon DNA stuff.

In a recent blog Jack Goins once again tries miserably to defend his so called Core Melungeon Project.  He first attempts to discredit Will Allen Dromgoole "and others who were stating opinions".  Does Jack Goins not realize his so called 'Core' Melungeon project was based on the opinions of Dromgoole "and others"? Besides using Dromgoole as a source in the project he uses Jarvis, Judge Lewis, Grohse, Plecker, all giving nothing but their opinions.

From the paper published by JoGG by Estes, Crain, Ferguson and Goins;
''The list of Core Melungeon families was taken from multiple historical sources, including the 1830 census,[72] Lewis Jarvis’ records,[73] court records,[74] tax lists,[75] Plecker’s lists,[76] Droomgoole’s articles,[77] the Shepherd Case,[78] the 1880 census,[79] the 1890 census report,[80] voting records,[81] Eastern Cherokee Indian[82] Applications, Rev. William Humble's correspondence[83], William Grohse's[84] records as well as other resources.'' [The 'historical sources in bold above; Jarivs, Dromgoole, Shepherd, and Eastern Cherokee Applications and court records state these people were either Portuguese and/or Indians, along with other sources before the above named and just as credible.] 
Table 4 published in his so called study titled " Melungeon Family Identification Table" list the articles of Dromgoole and Humble as the sources that they used to identify the family surnames, Dromgoole, whose work he calls 'spurious' when she is identifying the families as Portuguese and Indian yet uses her work in his report FORTY TWO TIMES!

After the attempt to discredit Dromgoole he goes on to attempt to prove the Benjamin Collins family could not possibly have been Indians like Dromgoole stated because their "ethnicity" is Sub Saharan.  Apparently Goins subscribes to the Plecker 'one drop rule' -- Benjamin's Sub Saharan ancestor may have been part of the 100 slaves that came to South Carolina with deAyllon in 1527 or deSoto or Pardo. Had they mixed with the Indians 1527-1600 would they not have been Indians?  I guess not according to Jack Goins.  He says Calloway 'surely knew' [Jack knows that by osmosis] that 4 of his great uncles were tried for illegal voting 'they being colored'.  Jack is clearly aware of the Native populations being  listed as and called 'free colored' as he has stated in his posts to the Melungeon list at Rootsweb. If a 'white man' marries into a tribes does his children not become Indians?  If a man with Sub Saharan DNA marries into the tribe do they not become Indians?  Apparently not, according to Jack Goins, the Indians become Africans.  

Goins then writes some gibberish about the Native Heritage Project which appears  nonsense to me. He apparently did not read what his co-author wrote on her blog:

''The AP picked up on the paper and set about to write their own article.  They did a pretty good job, all things considered, except for a typo or two (death years pertaining to photos should have been in the 1900s, not 1800s) and one slight error (the Melungeon male lines who tested were both African and European).   Found Here    
Indeed Estes at the Native Heritage Project did report the AP reporter made a 'slight error' in not reporting the European DNA of the Melungeon ancestors. It appears he then tries to override Estes' assessment and says the "AP reporter was correct because even if the head and source of the Melungeons, Vardy Collins and Buck Gibson had European DNA there were other Gibson and Collins with Sub Saharan therefore they were Sub Saharan no matter their DNA.''
In other words the way Jack Goins tells it is any of the Melungeons with Sub Saharan DNA are Africans, pure and simple.  They have no Indian ancestry and it is their African coloring and features that set them apart from their neighbors. Sub Saharan is Sub Saharan period. If one ancestor in 1024 was Sub Saharan and the other 1023 were Indians, it doesn't matter to Jack. They were Africans. On the other hand Vardy and Buck's European DNA does NOT make them European according to Jack - uh uh - they also have African DNA although he does not have a clue who either of their parents were.

Goins then writes that Pezzullo said they sent this project to the JoGG for review UNFINISHED IS MISLEADING'.

Let us look at the facts;
According to the dates which appear in the article it shows;

"Received: July 2011; accepted Dec 2011"

Janet Crain, one of the co-authors, wrote to the Melungeon Rootsweb list just one month after this paper was submitted to the JoGG for review:
''I for one still think Core Melungeons is a legitimate term and goal.
You have to have some standard to judge other people's results
against. We include the surnames and descendants of the two groups
actually proven by old records to have been called Melungeons. It is
regretful that no Boltons, Shumakes, etc. have joined but perhaps they
will someday. THIS PROJECT IS NOT FINISHED.  Nothing is written in stone. New DNA tests are made available, new research turns up new evidence, etc''.  Found here  Why did they not wait for the Boltons, Shoemakes, etc. to be tested? Is this not a Project Unfinished?

Now one month AFTER the report is submitted we have one of the authors saying the project  IS NOT FINISHED and she regrets that none of the group from South Carolina were tested. New research turns up new evidence, etc.  So why didn't they wait another year?  Six months?  Why didn't they post to the Bolton, Shoemake, Perkins list, etc at Rootsweb and inform these people they were looking for people to test- BEFORE PUBLISHING THE RESULTS?

Two weeks after they publish the paper Jack Goins writes;

"I believe this review would be accepted again before any legitimate genetic review board. And when we feel like this project has met its goals and other new discoveries found we will have another peer review to add if necessary.  Found here
In this latest blog Goins wrote it was misleading of me to write the project was not finished although both he and Janet Crain wrote that it was not finished.  He says 'this is because the "first and foremost goal" of the project was to find the Origin of the Core group originally named in our project.'   One third of the surnames they listed in the Core Project were from the South Carolina group and were never tested. If their goal was to find the origin of those people why did they publish before those people  were tested?  Found Here

How this next entry makes sense to anyone but Jack Goins is beyond me.  He writes;

''Those results plainly show an almost even mixture of European and African males and all the maternal test were European.  When presenting those results to  a peer review board you must use the test results found in the project. Those DNA results show the Melungeons of the early 19th century were the offspring of African-American men and European-American women.'' --  So what happened to the 'even mixture of European and African males'?   SMH I think he is trying to sell us that somehow he knows, perhaps by osmosis, that the European males morphed into African-American males. Surely there are no records, how does he know this? How does the DNA tests show the Melungeons of the early 19th century were the offspring of African-American men and European-American women when the Y DNA results 'plainly show an almost even mixture'.

He then goes on to pull the race card with my 'denial of African DNA' which is horse shit and he knows it.  Anyone who has followed my website, blog, facebook page, etc., over the years know I have posted hundreds of times of the Legend of the Melungeons in which they told of their Portuguese ancestors who mixed with the Indians, blacks and whites.  Jack Goins specifically knows I suspect the African DNA is a result of the slaves who accompanied the early Spanish and Portuguese explorers who then mixed with the Native tribes.  I do not believe there were any of the CORE group who descended from African slaves as there is NOT ONE record that records them as such, in a day and environment when there would be manumission papers, runaway slave ads, etc. Not ONE.

Lastly Goins then tries to paint Vardy Collins, Shep Gibson, Joseph Goins, etc. with African DNA because 'a descendant' of Vardy's has 11% African DNA in his autosomal results. I would expect if Vardy, Buck, and the Goins etc., had African DNA and MOST of this man's cousins were Melungeons, the African would be somewhere around at least 25%?  11% would be likely from the Goins/Minors as they married into the Minor who were also Sub Saharan.

Since this blog eluded to an "Update" to the DNA Project we will likely soon hear there is more proof they descended from the African males and white females.

And lastly I would say to Jack Goins.  Send your report and comments to a real geneticist; 

''In a Council for Responsible Genetics article 'The Color of Our Genes' they write; " examining less than 1 percent of a person's genetic background, these companies often overstate their tests' ability to say anything significant about a person's heritage, giving the impression that social categories of race and ethnicity are somehow genetically verifiable." Found Here 

Jack Goins Blog
2012 Paper


  1. "Will Allen Dromgoole"

    I respectfully point out that your citation source is very literally antique, and comes from a time before DNA science was a twinkle in anyones eye. Obviously you appear to me to want a certain outcome, which is Native American DNA/heritage for Melungeons, or N.A. combined with portugese myths.

    The Portugese myths arose quite obviously due to it being accepted as a European ancestry which was widely known as typically darker complected and typically swarthy compared to a Northern or NW European, as a matter of course in those times. For that reason, it was selected as the identity to use in order to 'pass' as being of Euro extraction.

    I think you will find that if you really want the truth, the early Melungeon paternal founder males are all listed as FPC / free persons of color, or some other similar desgination on early eastern census docs from the areas that they originated in or passed through,
    which coupled with the fact that their modern descendants test for paternal black african haplogroups, leaves little doubt what the heritage actually is.

    WA Dromgoole was a writer seeking to get a story that would promote her purpose and not harm her hosts in that period of time, and had no way to verify anything, nor any of the modern info that is available, not even mentioning the science that exists today.

    Lastly, I think its important to recall that Mr Goins, who you seem angry with, is a man who likely WANTED to find a ancestry that was European or supported and uncovered a romantic myth of Portugese sailors, I strongly doubt that he was hoping to find that his paternal ancestry IDEALLY dated to african males seeking to pass as white or european ancestry, and denying their own actual begginings as either slaves or forced laborers. I think its to his credit that he has not shirked the facts and sought to do anything but get to the actual facts, no matter where the facts led.

    He seems to me a rare and honest man, who did the honest and honorable thing, even when it became apparent that the facts did not lead into solving a family history abounding with myths of romantic mystery and nostalgic claims. Lets above all else be kind to one another, and lets feel free to disagree without becoming angry or disagreeable.

    First and foremost, I suggest you gain some real understanding of how significant and comprehensive the evidence is for Goins' position, which relies on early census and land records, as well as modern DNA results that combined leave no room for doubt.

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    2. With all due respect you have no idea what your are talking about.

      In 1540 when deSoto landed on the Pee Dee River --- Home of the only DOCUMENTED MELUNGEONS - he brought with him one ship of Portuguese sailors. If you would look up the journals of deSoto you would find that at each Indian town they took their share of the women .. do you suppose the were honorable men and just took these women to wash dishes? Each and everyone of those Indian maidens stolen from their towns had children with PORTUGUESE DNA as well as Spanish and African.

      You have no real understanding of Melungeons or history and furthermore you do not know Jack Goins like I know Jack Goins. I can prove what I write. Jack Goins has created mythical ancestries for these people. All he has is some DNA - 1% of their ancestry, he has no records whatsoever.

      Jack Goins recently published the 'free colored' in the 1830 census of Hawkins County giving the impression those families were of African ancestry. I commented that Roberta Estes wrote; "1830 – Indians living off of reservations and not “wild” would have been recorded in the “free colored persons” category. Other options were free whites and slaves." Last I looked he still hadn't published that. Ask yourself WHY?

      You wrote; "coupled with the fact that their modern descendants test for paternal black african haplogroups, leaves little doubt what the heritage actually is." You need to do a little research yourself. Vardy Collins and Buck Gibson haplogroups are EUROPEAN not African and in fact there are fewer African than European. If GOINS and MINOR are African because there haplogroups are E then Vardy and Buck are European, according to your and Jack Goins logic.

  2. with all due respect you said in your first paragraph that the portuguese sailors took indian women and had children with them. this is where you are fighting a no win battle except in your own imagination. If the men who took the women were Portuguese and this story is how you were descended, the why wouldn't they have a Portuguese Y-Haplo. I'm not talking about just DNA. You can have all sorts of DNA, but for you to have African Y-Haplo means that you are direct descendant it's not just some random mixture you got along the way. Your Y-Haplo is traced back unchanged from father to son. WHy is this such a problem anytime there is a\African anything involved. If you can't handle the truth you should not even delve into DNA geneaology. It is not tor the faint of heart. If you want to believe family stories and think it's all true not considering how mixed blacks had to "Pass" back then and form their own communities then by all means believe what you want. Don't get angry at the truth. The only real reason you're angry is because the results show African whether you want to openly admit it or not.....

    1. Dear Anonymous, I do hope this reply finds you well but honestly you do not know what you are talking about. There is no IF in the first paragraph. It is documented that one ship of men from Portugal accompanied deSoto in 1540 and it is docuemented they took hundreds of women from the Indian towns they passed through. Plese visit the Portuguese DNA Project and note that the Melungeon Gibsons are M269 - you will find an overwhelming number of Portuguese men with M269 The Melungeons said they had mixed with the 'blacks and whites' in 1848 and in 1890 they told Dromgoole they mixed with Africans, specifically the Goins. African DNA was no surprise. Fuurthermore I have no 'stories' and my families were not Melungeons. I have researched them, the families, their records, etc. You should look them up.


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